Collapsed narcissists

By Jessika Endsley

Imagine a person who is the sole victim of society. Someone who - if it were not for the societal makeup of the world, if it weren't for the images the public had been force-fed by the media, if it weren't for the fact that making money required hard work, if it weren't for the innate desire for others to be loved - would be a very happy, outgoing person. Imagine someone who, deep down inside, is one of the elite, the beautiful, and the charming; if it weren't for all the chemicals in the air, they'd be pretty. If it weren't for the fact that social skill can take a lot of exposure and practice, they'd be absolutely every woman's dream. And with beauty and charm, they would automatically be rich. By no fault of their own, they are stuck in a low-income household, doomed forever to isolation. Any chance they had at a good life was destroyed by others while they were still young enough to enjoy it.

Now imagine reminding this person that they are responsible for their happiness, and that being "elite" requires putting in the effort. Then imagine them calling you crazy and selfish. And let's say you believed them.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an Axis 2 Personality Disorder alongside Psychopathy (Anti-Social Personality Disorder) and Borderline Personality Disorder. When most think of a Narcissist, they may think of a self-loving, extroverted celebrity who spends countless hours perfecting their appearance before going out to charm. This can be the case with the classical Narcissist, who has developed an excellent coping skill from a young age that allows them to function through a false-self and an inflated ego. However, clinical Narcissism is much more than just self-absorbed vanity, which is common in some amount in very healthy minds. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is marked by traits including lack of empathy, obsession with social status or grandiosity, superficial charm, and inability to listen to, or show any regard for, others. Every relationship, romantic or not, is a way for them to "feed" their Narcissism; they may love someone only as they would love their own pinky finger, and may miss someone as they would a severed limb (if severed limbs could regrow.) If you're in a relationship with a Narcissist, remember that you are only an extension to them, and they don't love you the same way you probably love them. Narcissists are emotionally stunted, although pinning a certain age on where the Narcissist's emotional functions end would be an insult to children everywhere. A selfish six-year-old who daydreams of being an adored superhero and can't quite grasp why mommy get so upset when he ruins her favorite decorations is rather normal, and forgivable. So is the tantrum he may throw when he does not get his way. But these traits in a fifty-year-old are worrisome and disturbing. Most people do continue to develop emotionally, and integrate with reality as the age, but when a person's primary coping skills are stunted, many things can happen, including Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

It is agreed in many psychiatric circles that Narcissists subconsciously have deemed themselves unacceptable to others, and their conscious, self-perceived grandiosity is an overcompensation. How this happens varies and is up for debate. Was the individual born with a very sensitive temperament? Was the child used a measurement for a parents own self-worth? It is not shocking that Narcissism develops as a way to cope with extreme self-hatred, but a Narcissistic Personality is a house built on stilts. No matter how many pillars are holding it up, no matter what they are made, that house can come crashing down. No matter how many extensions and sources of Narcissistic feed an individual may have, there is always a chance of the personality collapsing from severe Narcissistic injury. When this happens, there are three main outcomes: the Narcissist gets a strong reality check and attempts to develop new coping skills, the Narcissist re-builds his safety net of feed and continues his behavior, or the Narcissist stays collapsed and poisons everything he touches from the ground up. Every Narcissist is damaging to associate with, but the third outcome is the one I have the most experience in dealing with, and is the one I wish to address here.

How the Narcissist Collapses

Narcissists of all kinds rely on a very fragile system of thoughts, behaviors, internalized ideals, outright lies, and sources of Narcissistic feed (also known as Narcissistic supply) to function. But, Narcissists themselves are volatile, unreliable, angry, immature, and erratic. This does not lead to happy long-term marriages or to stable careers, despite the many half-hearted attempts to create them; the people around them who are mistreated will eventually get sick of their shit and leave them behind. The Narcissist does not deal well with failure (or anything but stunning success) so having many failed relationships and careers only adds to the underlying lack of confidence. So while the Narcissist has done every self-destructive thing he could to ensure his own fall and abandonment by being erratic, self-absorbed, and abusive, he feels victimized and abused when it happens. He causes his own Narcissistic wound and then continues to pick at it until the entire limb is gone. The Narcissist has not lived up to his ideals and loses his human extensions, collapses, and settles into a mental loop of deluded, self-imposed nightmares. Maybe you see it happen, maybe you cause it, or maybe he has already been like this for years when you meet him. There are many scenarios that can help lead to a Narcissistic collapse, but "none of them are his fault."

The Collapsed Narcissist's Inner Landscape

Elliot Rodger, narcissist mass murderer

Elliot Rodger, narcissist spree killer

The collapsed Narcissist grows from being discontent to being depressed. His self-hatred is not hidden behind charm or lies of success anymore, and he knows he does not love himself and that he does not love others "although he tries." He does not need to lie as much, although he still contradicts himself because it's the only way he knows how to communicate. One collapsed Narcissist I have dealt with lied to me about his age when we met, telling me he was twenty-seven. One sentence later, he was whining in-depth about how he had not ever had his chance to party yet was "almost middle aged." A collapsed Narcissists defenses have been broken down by his abandonment and the world feels hostile and unreal to him. Narcissists are emotional leeches, and his supply is gone, leaving him with the shell that was his true being the entire time. Now he has only his fantasies and his self-imposed victimization to keep him occupied. The one upside to the chronically collapse Narcissist is that a more honest and complete picture of what Narcissistic mind can be formed using their self-depreciating honesty. If you are unfortunate enough to become one of his confidants, due to your own caring nature or your own almost masochistic curiosity, you will quickly learn that this person is extremely empty.

The collapsed Narcissist knows that he does not feel emotions the same way others do. What he does feel, he cannot recognize appropriately. He knows that he is failing to make real connections to others, and he knows that he cannot bond; if he wasn't aware of this before he collapsed, he is now. He now abhors the thought of faking interpersonal connections, because it's the fault of someone else that he cannot do it naturally. In the case I have the most experience with, it was deemed the fault of the entire social structure of humanity that this Narcissist cannot form deep emotional bonds to other human beings because they have negative empathy (they don't only lack empathy, they get off on manipulation and causing pain.) He grows more and more depressed as he observes people making connections in public; seeing happy couples, groups of friends, or even politely-chatting acquaintances sends him into a blind rage. Violent thoughts emerge from these experiences, and during particularly abusive outbursts, he may detail the harm he wishes to cause to the people he calls "normal." And if you object, you are part of the problem which needs to be solved.

Trying to explain emotions and bonding to a Narcissist is akin to trying to explain color to someone who is entirely colorblind. It is frustrating and, when the Narcissist fails to understand or become "enlightened" to the world of deep feeling, he may accuse you of lying or conspiring against him. Logic does not work when speaking to a Narcissist. Even breaking down deep relationships and emotions using biological evidence about the purpose of, and the chemicals behind, basic human emotional bonding will send a collapsed Narcissist into a hysterical hissy fit. "You can't possibly know what you're talking about" and "People who form real connections don't do it because of oxytocin!" are likely counter-arguments. Never mind that poets have never stopped trying to define love and that people have been philosophizing about emotions since the beginning of time; if you can't explain it, you're not really feeling it, and if you try to explain it, then you're fake and even more of an emotional robot than the Narcissist.

Collapsed Narcissists' Social Life

Unlike the classical, still-functioning Narcissist, a chronically collapsed Narcissist likely has no social life or a very small one. If he was married, he probably isn't anymore, and he may speak briefly to immediate family when he needs something. Because of their dependence on the emotional supply of others, when a Narcissist loses his social life, he may grasp desperately at nothing. They may stalk online, learning everything they can about a person they will never meet, and may never actually engage in a conversation with them. He has lost faith in establishing and maintaining relationships, so he may cultivate false online identities to satisfy a small part of his need for admiration. But, no matter how "close" he gets to his online friend, he will harbor resentment and hatred at the supposed "definite knowledge" that he or she would never really like the Narcissist if they were to meet in person. The Narcissist hates himself to such an extent that he projects his own self-hated onto others; everyone hates him, so why bother improving anything about himself? Why bother being nice? No one would like the "real him" anyway, so why not just be an abrasive dick?

When a Narcissist who has spent many years as collapsed does decide to attempt social relationships, he becomes deeply infuriated and frustrated when things do not play out like they would in a party movie or a romantic comedy. Since Narcissists have no experience with real connections and true friendships based on mutual respect, they can only base "real" socializing on what is seen through entertainment. If you're his "insider friend" and he confides in you, he will most certainly try to use you (and whatever social life you have left after maintaining prolonged contact with him) to grasp clumsily at new social experiences. He is so drained from having no real source of Narcissistic feed that he cannot be bothered with establishing and maintaining friendships; he will gulp down whatever he gets, even if it's a drop. Going to a social gathering with a collapsed Narcissist is painful. He will likely spend ample time getting ready and then sit alone (or with you) while quietly raging about the audacity of the people around you to actually have fun, and if you're feeling social, he will attack you for speaking to others. He will watch the other people closely and will hold it against each and every one of them for not "talking to him first." It is not shyness, and it is not introversion; it's pure malignant vanity.

A chronically collapsed Narcissist cannot accept that there are people who are happy spending time alone. If you do, as his confidant, he will most certainly assure you that you spend time alone because other people hate you. Any evidence otherwise (such as friends asking you to go out and you declining) will be taken as your being self-absorbed and arrogant; they don't really want to spend time with you, or you would have gone! You may catch yourself wondering if people really do hate you, and giving yourself a mental slap to keep from growing insecure. Any negative trait the collapsed Narcissist has will be projected onto you. Before you know it, you're a vain, selfish, arrogant, lonely liar but you're part of the very problem that caused him to be unhappy and empty his entire life.

Narcissist Delusions of Innocence

Although a Narcissist who has had their identity collapse does often very openly hate themselves, he will still refuse to accept the part that he played in the outcome of his "awful" life. It is everyone else's fault. It goes beyond blaming parents for a less than ideal upbringing. If he isn't rich, it's the fault of his upbringing for not being in the right area, or the fault of his school, or the fault of the way in which employees are chosen. It is never, ever, because he has given up on his hygiene and hasn't applied for any jobs in the past two years, nor is it because he wore his shirt inside out to his last interview. If he cannot get a date, it's the fault of everyone who didn't go out with him. Never mind the fact that he didn't ask anyone to go out with him. After all, they should be coming to him to be his date! If you decide to point out this loophole, he will remind you that any woman who would say yes to him would be "too ugly to bother with." Just because he's unlikable and probably unattractive does not mean he should have to settle for someone less than a twenty-five year old, female version of what he used to think he looked like (and yes, that is very often the case with Narcissistic preferences. Gross.)

collapsed-narcissist

A collapsed Narcissist will likely grow to be delusional and paranoid. Paranoia itself is a byproduct of self-absorbed thoughts, but when the paranoia belongs to a clinical Narcissist, listening to the mental gymnastics that the individual uses to make themselves into a victim of society can make you feel the need to preform constant reality checks on yourself. That show with the man that's more attractive than he is came on because he was watching television. There is a happy couple at the coffee shop because it makes him unhappy and he cannot have it. Being intelligent has "suddenly become popular" because he isn't as smart as others. In this way, the world revolves around him for the sake of making him unhappy. He is a living, breathing embodiment of every time a person thought "why me?" The delusions of the specific brand of fucked-up individual can be so apparent that you may wonder how he has escaped being locked away. In one instance, while I was close to one of these individuals, I made a very basic video for my psychology-based Youtube channel. While I was pacing in the video, I turned to camera toward the mirror to briefly show my Easter dress to my viewers; a few hours after uploading the video, I learned that I had been reported by the Narcissist for "showing his picture" on my latest video. A moment of my own mild vanity in showing off my dress in the mirror had somehow been warped into me showing a picture of someone I had never even taken a picture of. I met with the police and we laughed and laughed.

Surviving a Collapsed Narcissist

Being a confidant to a collapsed Narcissist (or any Narcissist) is damaging. It does not matter if you are an emotionally strong, non-delusional, well-adjusted individual; dealing with their delusional sense of entitlement and self-hatred will make you think you are crazy. You are not. Narcissists have an uncanny ability to gaslight everyone around them. They contradict themselves, they lie about things you did, they assure you that a lie is the absolute truth and may even suggest you seek help for not remembering events the way they are telling them. My relationships with Narcissists have happened due to my own curiosity and involvement with the mental health community. I cannot imagine the hell that people who marry these individuals go through, much less having them as parents. I can imagine that it requires a lot of therapy.

A key to survival is to end the relationship. It may be a friendship, it may be romantic, or it could be a relative, but keep in mind that to them, you're a self-regenerating pinky finger at best. You will not be missed the same way you would miss someone you love and have spent much of your life with. You're an emotional-food source, not a human being. Only by ending the relationship to the collapsed Narcissist will you be able to see clearly; no one can see clearly with one deluded hand over their eye and someone lying in their ear. Narcissists are toxic, and collapsed Narcissists don't even have the decency to hide that fact. Part of their function is to make you question your sanity, and even once you've determined you're dealing with a Narcissist, it will still be almost impossible to keep your head above water. Many people see a Narcissist for what they are and still cannot resist the urge to "help" them. For those people, I have very little advice other than to run towards someone who wants help and can be helped. It certainly isn't the Narcissist.

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1.  Keys    Tuesday, June 10, 2014

Sounds like most of today's politicians, and certainly our Democratic leadership.



2.  Jessika Endsley    Wednesday, June 11, 2014

If they aren't already collapsed, they probably will be soon.



3.  Janette     Sunday, January 25, 2015

What do you think about a collapsed narcissist who becomes a counsellor to vulnerable people ? I'm being serious as j know such a person and they advertise their services on their own website
It makes me feel sick to contemplate it
Yet he is a member of the BACP ! Awful



4.  Bill Brown    Monday, January 26, 2015

Fantastic article. "Collapsed narcissist" is a very good term, and explained very well here. When I Google "narcissistic breakdown" (as used by Sam Vaknin, for example), all that comes up is an endless sea of testimonials from narcissism survivors. Not that survivors of trauma or abuse or just bad relationships have no right to vent or heal or grieve online... it's just that AS a narcissist there is not very much material on how to get better, or just to understand ones self better. (Most think it's a psychological death sentence or just a nice way of saying "incurably terrible person".) This "collapsed" stage is a very low place to be in life, a narcissist at the end of the road. I guess mine fizzling out and ending with deep depression and just this painful awareness of everything is not that bad. Elliot Rodgers indeed. I appreciate it that his sickness is being *CORRECTLY* identified here... the guy was a narcissist and misogynist gone psychopath. [Is that the same as "pathological narcissism"? I don't think so... but I could be wrong.] Although I am sure people were hurt by me, or used by me, at least I am not heading out the door to "kill the bad people" who refuse to acknowledge and pay some sort of expected homage to some twisted and deranged sense of omnipotence. Small comfort, but it's a big deal. Gunning down people who don't even know you, or even know that you're angry... it's unthinkable. Yet it happens far too often. Elliot Rodgers. Timothy McVeigh. Columbine. I watched Columbine unfold on TV as I was in between jobs back then. Some images never leave your mind.
Anyways, this article was a breath of fresh air and was really insightful. Although it had a smart and derisive tone towards narcissists, it really held off with the whole "torch and pitchfork" inclination most writers (unapologetically) take when writing on this subject.



5.  Bill Brown    Monday, January 26, 2015

Are you referring to Sam Vaknin?



6.  EndlessSummer    Thursday, March 19, 2015

Excellent explanation " You’re an emotional-food source, not a human being. Only by ending the relationship to the collapsed Narcissist will you be able to see clearly; no one can see clearly with one deluded hand over their eye and someone lying in their ear. Narcissists are toxic"

I dated someone like this and he started "splitting" and blaming me and acusing me of being a liar, picked a fight broke up with me via text (like a coward) It left me devestated. Until I strated investigating his behaviors - and I accidentally came across a Pick up artist forum where he looks for wingmen to go out and pick up women "playing a game" to get sex through one night stands. It is such a sad, sorry life. I just did not deserve to be pushed away and cut off like a severed arm - he just got angry and flipped out. I think he really tried to have real "relationship" but could not hold it together -



7.  EndlessSummer    Thursday, March 19, 2015

yup, i notice they do this to feel like a hero - this guy i know that is like this is a personal trainer. im sure he preys on lots of women and theyre all going to get hurt and used like me. theres no way to stop them. they hide their alter ego so well



8.  Shaun    Sunday, March 29, 2015

I know a collapsing somatic narcissist. She was once very beautiful, but now her looks are flagging and everyone has abandoned her. She now brings home homeless/mentally ill men for sex. She is pathetic and endlessly searching for 'the one' as she has for the last 35 years.



9.  Lucy    Friday, April 17, 2015

Spot on. Great read. Thank you for penning one of the best articles I've read on the subject. My collapsing narcissist is just miserable and extremely paranoid, and of course the "entire human race should be annihilated" because of it. You live my life :)



10.  Anjali Grover    Tuesday, June 9, 2015

I feel that I have come out of the gallows after the break-up of 25 years of marriage with a chronic narcissist. I believe this man is rapidly moving from being a highly-functional N to a collapsing N. What do you do when the collapsing N is the father of your children? I would love to get some advise. Thanks



11.  Don't pity the Narc.    Tuesday, July 7, 2015

As a self aware narc(cluster b traits at least)
Worst trait is "Interrupting"

I'm considering piercing my tounge to remind me to shut the hell up.
And instead listen.
Ever heard of this?
Cutting my tounge off seemed to drastic and just putting a Lego (tiny)on my tounge helped but I still kept slipping.



12.  Air+Light    Tuesday, July 14, 2015

I loved a malignant narcissist for nearly 20 years, he is collapsed and so hateful to me. "I hate PEOPLE. I don't LIKE TO TALK. People are fkning stupid" and recently "I hate it when you make fun of me..." Uh...when? "...and Im going to get back at you"
The problem is, I'm a pathetic co-dependant. I wish he'd just die. I know that is awful to say, but I really want him smitten from the face of the earth, he makes me profoundly unhappy.
My parents abandoned me as a child, andI have no family. Due to a decade long marriage to the aforementioned MN, I have no friends, self esteem or motivation. Please help. Someone.



13.  Wkeele    Saturday, August 22, 2015

I was married to a Narcissist for 20 years too. Divorced 7 years now. He is still angry and targeting me. The rule is No Contact! I also started attending Calvary Chapel Church thru God I have learned what healthy is. I attended counseling and learned techniques to deal with my reactions to his behavior. I remarried and I am happy. There is hope after a narcissist marriage. Read Healed and Set Free by Tammy Brown.



14.  Air+Light    Wednesday, August 26, 2015

Thank you.



15.  Daisy    Monday, August 31, 2015

Wow this story is the exact same as mine. I have been suicidal because of him but I keep convincing myself he loves me and has a heart somewhere but each time I allow him back in my life he continues the same patterns. He is textbook. I have managed to get him out of my house but he is still in my life. Not many people see what I do but certain people have noticed his other side and he is now collapsing. I am in love with him but I have had the same feelings as you about him dying etc. It is not what I really want obviously but sometimes I feel like it is the only way to escape as I too was abandoned as a child and my 10 year relationship and marriage ended as well and I am very scared to be alone. I also get on with all his friends and family so moving away from him will be a very big step and I am very fragile right now having been signed off for many months with depression. I am worried what my future holds.



16.  Daisy    Monday, August 31, 2015

At least you are aware of your traits. Most people cannot evaluate themselves. If we could all do that there would be a lot more hope.



17.  Air+Light    Tuesday, September 1, 2015

Let's hope. I want him gone. He's destroyed my life.



18.  Jessika Endsley    Tuesday, September 1, 2015

I hope you can run from your narcissist. I need to as well



19.  Naomi Ann Veitch    Wednesday, September 30, 2015

I have been on and off with a collapsed narcissist for 3 years now and im a nervous wreck i finally got him out my house but yes i somehow wind up feeling sorry for him , he can be the most loving caring helpful person, but i womdered if it was his way of controlling everything as he had to do everything for me ? So much so that it was slowly taking all my independence away .we could be having a great conversation about anyrhing but hed find something in that conversation to find fault in regardless of how silly it was or sounded and actually believe his assumptions and argue for hours upon hours , its memtally draining ive questioned my own sanity even wanted to just make it all stop if u catch my drift.why do i find myself wanting him so much when i know how toxic he is take that side of him away and u couldnt ask for a better bloke but this is just ripping me apart , everything is my fault im.walking on egg shells he even times me when i go to the shop and god forbid if another male talks to me at all .

There is no help is there im.drained lonely angry frustrated and he is thinking the worst of me all the time , so he will destroy my job my family he will lie about me like he just wants to ruin me completely.
And am hr later he loves me and didnt mean anything if i stand up for myself it suddenly becomes all my fault

HELP IM GOING MAD



20.  Zaphryn    Thursday, October 1, 2015

I was with a narcissist for five years, and believe me, it is POSSIBLE to get out. He's fucking with your mind, your sanity, everything, they're skilled manipulators, even if they don't even know it. Don't give up, you're more worth than that. He wants you to be his emotional food source. Don't be. You want him so much because you too want love and don't think you're worthy of anything better. And you can have it, but not from him. Whatever he offers isn't true love. You can find true love one day. Knowing this person will help you steer clear in the future, because now you know the warning signs. It's possible to improve, to get healthy, to get out, to get better, and to find the right person who will love you. It happened to me, and I never thought it would.



21.  Naomi Ann Veitch    Thursday, October 1, 2015

Yes thats what i thought there is no helping them i feel sad for these ppl he dosent even know why he is doing this or why he is this way
Thankyou zaphryn for replying back to me , i will definatley need councelling as i feel almost absent from everything in a world of my own i hope it dont take long to get over this my bihgest mistake is.. by making contact i need to cease all contact as hard as it is .
Ill get there its such a horrible feeling ive never encountered someone like this before ,and whats the best way to explain to him why i cannot continue seeing him or do i just dont contact him again?



22.  Fuad Al Qahtani    Sunday, October 11, 2015

Your story is a carbon copy of mine. My wife was so like this and now we are going through a divorce I can see from the flying monkeys that she entraps (my friends)bringing stories of what she is up to or doing in a former marital home (I am no longer in the home). I now have no contact but it seems her actions are a way of still getting her supply (through her own inner satisfaction) as I am sure she knows it will eventually get back to me. From what I hear she has really gone haywire with serious drug abuse. It is sad for her and I cannot help feeling this way, but the longer I have sympathy I just feel like I will never heal from this mental trauma. I sometimes think does she still love me. I get the urges to reach out to her but I cant because she has put legal matters in front that are just a stone wall, as if I did contact her I would be in violation. I am now accused of being a domestic abuser (not proven at all) and I know that will never go away in the eyes of friends or our social circle, I have been smeared as being a latent homosexual, which again will never go away. As you I feel like I am going mad, because I find myself going through our relationship and analysing it all, questioning myself and my sanity and saying to myself 'could I have been better' It really is so painful and I feel your pain.
You are not alone.



23.  Naomi Ann Veitch    Monday, October 12, 2015

Thanks fuad for replying to my story . I dont feel so alone and crazy knowing other ppl have experienced what i was /am going through , im staying completley out of contact with him and when a negative thought comes in my head i try replace it with a good one its very hard cery very hard but i wont give up i want my self back and im claiming it!!!



24.  Fuad Al Qahtani    Monday, October 12, 2015

Wow my female narcissist wants to get me arrested and jailed I really
dont know what I have done to deeply receive all this vengence, she
filed for divorce not me, she chose meth over our marriage I can only
thank God that we did not have any children. She also says I abandoned
her when in actual fact it was the opposite. All her friends love her
and care for her, so she says but it turned out they are drug users
also. But they are so genuine towards her she keeps saying. I have heard that many men have been into our marital home also, there just seems to be no respect or indeed consideration that we are going through the divorce, why cant she just wait. The apartment was bought solely by me, I am not begrudging her a fair share of the marital property, which she has taken hostage. My car she just gives it to anyone to use. It seems she just has zero moral conduct. If I was her father I would be ashamed of her, because it does not matter what you say or do, she is always right in her own head and world. Her enablers will no doubt agree with her, because they have a benefit, free rent in my apartment. it is disgusting!



25.  adult daughter    Tuesday, October 13, 2015

My MN is my mother. She is now in her 80s. She began her rapid collapse when my father died just over 2 years ago. She was in total denial that he was terminal, and when he finally passed, she was shaken to the core that her WILL alone was not enough to make him live and that for once, she DIDN'T get what she wanted. My father had a very deadly kind of cancer and lived years beyond the longest projected life expectation for his condition, yet my NM had NO gratitude for this "borrowed time". On the contrary, she threw a fit at the hospital, raging at the doctors who "gave up" and "killed" my father. Everything HAS to be somebody's fault (EXCEPT hers, of course). She still holds these delusions that my father was "killed".

She went over the edge when, a year later, her favorite "golden child" died. Again, this 50+ year old GC was very ill, and had been suffering for years. The GC was taken off life support, and (naturally) was "killed" by the GC's spouse and children who made the decision. My mother would have kept GC on machines FOREVER. Never mind GC's quality of life (none, GC was in a coma w/o brain activity)--all my MN mother cared about was that she would be "alone" and not able to "visit" GC. She refused to stand with GC's family (and GC) after the machines were disconnected. She stormed out in a huff b/c she didn't get her way, and missed her GC's passing.

Her false world where everyone catered to her is now gone, and she is literally losing her mind. Almost immediately, mild dementia has set in and is slowly but surely getting worse. She makes the most outrageous threats and accusations to and about me. I have lived abroad since I was 20--I now qualify for AARP, so I have been away from "home" for decades. Her delusional and manipulative allegations against me are literally impossible, and could easily be dispelled if she would just ASK certain neutral persons, but she refuses. She doesn't WANT to know the truth. She prefers to believe her delusional plots against her.

Yet, in spite of CONSTANTLY treating and speaking to me in an abusive way--that no rational person would treat a stranger, she wants me to travel to be with her. (She refuses to travel, you must go to HER turf.) She is "lonely" (but makes no effort to meet people half way who reach out to her), she is "sad" (but refuses to try to help herself), "I hate her" (even though I have NEVER said that). Every call involves her shouting at me, berating me, saying totally false and spiteful, hateful things about my spouse of 15 years, and of course, she always chokes up about how "hateful" I am, and then sobs until she has a coughing fit and drops the phone and walks away. Eventually I hang up, then she calls back, bawling that "I hung up on her."

I would visit, but my spouse is "banned" from her house (for NO rational reason--oh, and my spouse is "banned" from her funeral , too!)--she only wants me isolated and alone with no support. She wants me to leave my spouse and be a single parent--not just for a visit, for good. Our marriage is very strong, there is mutual love all around, and we are a happy family. Needless to say, there will be no breakup. She simply wants me to be alone like her, and then fall apart and have to depend on HER. Divide and conquer. My happiness, my children's happiness means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to her.

I have asked, "What about how I feel, what about what I want, what my children want? We have a life I have worked HARD for and I do not want to give it up." Her response is either "I don't care what you want" or "What about what *I* want??" Then comes the litany of all she has done for me (except the horrid childhood abuse she totally denies), as if I am now obliged to give up my life, leave my family, and move thousands of miles from home to keep her company. Her sense of entitlement to my life is so all-encompassing, it is hard to believe.

Likewise hard to believe is that she heaps praise on people who are practically strangers--NEVER **ANY**praise for me despite real achievements, and helping her (in spite of her roadblocks). All others are bitterly criticized in a viciously gossipy manner for imaginary infractions--store employees, celebrities, crime victims. Everyone is incompetent. Everyone is out to steal from her (one reason I don't visit her, I can't be accused of stealing what she misplaces if I'm not there). Her life is SO much harder than EVERYONE else's. (Trust me, she is fortunate.) The self-pity is truly sickening, considering what some people deal with heroically and without complaint every day.

She has no idea she is a MN. She's perfect, everyone else is defective. She seems to think that her excessive display of self-pity will make her "supply" come running, when it is in fact, repellent. Those that do go out of their way (some make an hour + trip each way) to try to assist her with heavy work she can no longer do are "paid handsomely"--$10/hr. Generosity has never been her strong suit--she is now demanding various people give back items she has "loaned" them, even though these "loans" were gifts--all given 25 to almost 50 years ago--and these are things she does not need (some she has absolutely NO use for, like old children's clothes), and many are worth only sentimental value to those the items were given to. She's like a child, "MINE, MINE!"

One consolation is that now that she is old, people no longer fear her--when she was in her prime, she was terrifying and people did her bidding. Now she's perceived as a ranting, mean, nutty old lady and people are dismissive. I admit I think she's getting her just desserts. Strangers increasingly no longer put up with her crap--which drives her nuts. She's just not the "boss" anymore, because there's no one around to be bossed. Soon she'll be pathetic, but I am steeling myself for that, because making the mistake of feeling sorry for her is EXACTLY what she wants. She wants people to feel sorry for her and think they are trying to help her--when all the time SHE'S thinking she's got someone to control.

The old spider may have lost her fangs, but that does not mean it is safe to get tangled up in her web. When I was a child, I was trapped in her web. I got out, and I will NEVER underestimate her desire to possess me (and my children). Nothing will entice me to venture back into her "parlor"--she will always be the spider, and all the rest of us are only flies.



26.  Kelly Unique Chic Mciver    Friday, October 23, 2015

X



27.  Angiegirl    Tuesday, October 27, 2015

You must learn somehow to find you ARE ENOUGH alone! I do not feel the need to have anyone in my life; if I do allow them in - it is because I want them in my life. But, I couldn't 'chose' my family!



28.  Dovette    Tuesday, October 27, 2015

Not stand-alone narcissism........

Submitted by Heather Clemenceau on June 4, 2014 - 10:18am

Pundits have written that Elliot, who was the son of the Hunger Games director, was a sociopath or psychopath, bi-polar, schizophrenic, schizo-affective, with narcissistic personality disorder, social anxiety disorder, anti-social personality disorder, and obsessive-compulsive ideation. Articles have appeared saying that he "heard voices."

If you read the Manifesto, his major problem is severe social anxiety, narcissism, and obsessive compulsiveness. His 140 page diary is completely lucid. Some things really stood out in his past - the number of times his parents "sprung" major life changes on him suddenly, a divorce, changing schools, an apparent affair, new baby, sudden trips for months at a time.......Of course none of these things combined make for mass murderers, but they stood out to this kid as being formative of his feelings of rejection that somehow drove low self-esteem and later delusion, triggered by puberty, at least according to him.

A careful reading of his words reveals that his social life as a child consisted primarily of "playdates" arranged by his mother. In fact, he refers to them as playdates in the manifesto as late as the age of 15 or 16. This suggests he did not have the communication skills to find his own friends to play with. He resisted change, and suffered tantrums or apparent neurological storms through his childhood and teenage years. He graduated to throwing drinks on girls and couples, which would seem to be another form of adult tantrum.

Another piece of data is presented to us as his fear of driving. He had difficulty tolerating other people in high school and ended up taking mostly online classes in alternative ed high school. He was bullied by other children. According to news reports he lived at the Independent Living Institute in Santa Barbara, a facility that offers "living skills instruction to help adults with disabilities to live more independently in their communities," according to the website. There must have been a specific reason for this. If so, then it surely was not appropriate for him live unsupervised or to have roommates who knew nothing about his history or issues. If he was admitted to a program for adults who needed "living skills instruction" then surely there would have been a formal medical diagnosis and an intake process that evaluated him. So I guess it's just a matter of time before that diagnosis is finally revealed.

He never mentions hearing voices in his Manifesto either. I am not sure about his having any sociopathic traits. Additionally, the accusation that he was a sociopath fails for me since there was no cruelty to animals or small children. His violent traits emerged as an adult, after years of rage building up inside without relief due to lack of social skills. Nothing about his YouTube videos or Manifesto suggest schizophrenia or psychosis because he is so lucid and I'm not sure that true psychotics could plan an event out so carefully as he did. He actually does know right from wrong, but feels that he has no choice but to implement The Day of Retribution.

He was simultaneously obsessed with and terrified of beautiful blonde girls - the word "blonde" appears in his Manifesto more than 60 times. Limited, intense areas of focus such as this and his obsessive talking to people about his virginity and diatribe about women are characteristics of Asperger's. So too is the inability to perceive the thoughts of others, which he certainly did not seem to do as per his Manifesto. As is awkwardness, failure to look into the eyes during an interaction, answering in two-word responses. Yet another Aspie characteristic is also ignoring social cues to stop talking about one's obsessive focus, and his failure to notice this is what presumably drives his remaining friends away at last.

He had no concept of women as people; he didn’t seem to realize that women had their own opinions, preferences, and thoughts. They were only walking measurements of a man’s self-worth – purely sexual objects. This is not due to mere vanity on his part. He possessed the certitude that he was the perfect dating specimen. He was not only a misogynist, but he hated men as well, particularly other races and "half-breeds," which was odd since he was of Chinese/Malay and white (British) parentage.

You can see in his writings how he used neuralinguistic programming on himself by repeating the same phrases over and over again from childhood into adulthood. "It's not fair," I deserve it more," etc. etc. He rejects women for having "base instincts," but he objectifies blonde girls using the same base instincts. He never attributes any personality or other characteristics to the girls he covets, only that they must be gorgeous and blonde. Yet there's no evidence he even communicated with girls in young adulthood. In the endgame, he finds it easier to kill girls than to communicate with them.

He was certainly narcissistic, but was he a classic Narcissistic Personality Disorder? It would seem not, because in his Manifesto, he often describes much failure in his life, which he attributes to himself. This is not really characteristic of a true NPD, if you read the DSM-V. If he was actually diagnosed as a narcissist, then he would have truly been in hell on earth since he was socially paralyzed, as he would not be able to interact with those people who could gratify his ego. IMO, a true narcissist would not plan to shoot themselves in the head thus destroying the beauty they perceived in themselves as did Elliot, who referred to himself many times as beautiful, magnificent and on PUAhate.com as a "10/10 pretty boy").

What I find most interesting is that when his family's representatives and friends watch the videos, they don't recognize him. To them he was stilted in conversation and almost completely withdrawn, capable of making little eye contact. Yet on video he is verbose, sinister, and occasionally flirtatious, all while so sensitively describing the beauty of the world around him. In some videos he seems likely to have been seriously medicated or has been drinking. He's also very theatrical in his presentation, which suggests that he has rehearsed his statements. Finally, his verbage in his writing and videos is very formal and awkward, which is also characteristic of the "little professor" observation in Asperger's people.

I am not qualified to evaluate anyone and the above is only my observation. But all the above suggests to me that he was indeed on the ASD spectrum and that he was co-morbid with several other factors.

Reply to Heather Clemenceau

Quote Heather Clemenceau

Yours is a very thought out post... one comment.

Submitted by Insidious_Sid on June 4, 2014 - 12:38pm

I thought narcissists have a deep down "hole" they are trying to fill with their projections and false symbols of real success. Externally, they present themselves as "godlike" but internally there is the antithesis of this persona, the person who would desperately need such false associations with success or power.

The interesting part of of Elliot Rodgers admissions about his failings is that they are always redirected externally - someone else's fault. His step-mother, brother, other men, women who would deny him, society, humanity... So, by this extension his failings are really not his own but the result of OTHERS failing HIM. So, even when admitting his failings and hard feelings, he is coming from a purely victimized stance, where only others are accountable. He also goes on to stress the extreme injustice because to snub a regular human is bad enough, but to snub a magnificent creature like him is outrageous, the ultimate injustice and insult.

Reply to Insidious_Sid

Quote Insidious_Sid

He can't look inwardly.....

Submitted by Heather Clemenceau on June 4, 2014 - 2:00pm

at himself at all. He doesn't seem to recognize or doesn't mention that he is almost completely mute in the presence of most people. He also cannot realize that even though he has no girls, other people might have reasons to keep them from going into camps. But of course as a divine dictator, his desires trump everyone else's.

In his final days, Elliot was more calm than he had ever been, because his social anxiety was dying the closer he got to death – and the closer he got to becoming a murderous god. Feeling sympathy and revulsion at the same time is hard to reconcile. One can only wonder whether, had he lived, he would meet the legal criteria for insanity as a defence against his crimes. People who claim he was merely selfish and entitled are very cruel IMO. This kid's story really got into my head and haunted me unlike anything else I have seen or read.



29.  Dovette    Tuesday, October 27, 2015

https://www.psychologytoday...



30.  QuartuvLarry    Tuesday, October 27, 2015

Have you tried Iboga? Or WOULD you try it?



31.  Rebecca Freeman    Saturday, October 31, 2015

Surely some of this is fair. Hear me out. Even if you're unattractive yourself, why would you want to date anyone you didn't find attractive? At that point, you'd rather be single. I can understand that being narcissism if you continued to feel entitled to something you could not have and did not understand you would never have it, but otherwise, it's just being real -- especially if you once went to real effort in the past to fix it and still couldn't meet the required standards. Few of us would choose to do something we didn't want to do, after all.



32.  Angela Pierce    Monday, November 2, 2015

"I cannot imagine the hell that people who marry these individuals go through, much less having them as parents. I can imagine that it requires a lot of therapy."

If you're lucky enough to be seeing a therapist who recognizes it. I wasn't.



33.  Angela Pierce    Monday, November 2, 2015

One day at a time. I left my narcissist 20 years ago. You're only totally free when the kids grow up and move out



34.  Angela Pierce    Monday, November 2, 2015

Are you sure you're a narcissist, or just self-centered?

It's been my observation that clinical narcissists aren't able to see their faults. We're ALL self-centered. Just some more than others.



35.  Angela Pierce    Monday, November 2, 2015

https://www.psychologytoday...



36.  Thomas Southern     Tuesday, November 10, 2015

The first narcissist in my life was my second step mother. The pressure she created on my being did do much damage however, I also learned to lucid dream and in that space I healed the most damaging aspects of her reality while still around her. After, I formed a habit of having an occasional best friend narcissist. The second narcissist clumsy and maybe mentally dangerous but I have left each with a mountain of treasures of growth. They are perfect petty tyrants. I do not feel remorse for this because I know I paid a high price for each treasure.



37.  Louise    Tuesday, November 10, 2015

Yes NO CONTACT. It kills them to know they are insignificant and cannot get to play mind fucks with you any more. Go no contact, no matter what he says and does to suck you back in, EVEN a medical emergency. It's hard to turn into a cold 'bitch', but you know, emulating them is the only way to finally get rid of them. They don't like 'cold' people only kind people who they can take advantage of for their own survival. Go No Contact, be the bitch he actually is and watch him have a total meltdown. BTW this is the way that others around you will finally get to understand what you have been putting up with. My own children 'loved' him, supported me but also doubted me until I went no contact and he began to try to 'get to me' through my children. They then saw through him and now have also gone no contact with him. No contact not only saved me and allowed me to thrive, but most important it saved my relationship with my children, family and MY friends. THAT was my only responsibility, to protect my life, and my children who I brought up as a single mother to be amazing people. NO WAY was I going to allow some sick fuck from fucking up what I fought so hard for all my life. He could try to fuck up my life, but when it came to my loved I STOOD UP and fought back with all my might and WON! Who do these people think they are? Better still, who do they think you are? And why on earth keep contact with someone who is mad and bad for you? Surely, it's better to be alone and give yourself the opportunity to finally meet people who have you back and who do not play games or make you try to believe YOU need help. Yes, we do need help, but not from them. Learn everything there is about how narcissists operate, what they think, do and how they deceive. Once you understand their sickness YOU WILL NEVER WANT TO HAVE THEM ANYWHERE NEAR YOU and eventually will totally disgust you and the pain will finally disappear and YOU will laugh at their stupid attempts to suck you back in. EDUCATION IS POWER, so please empower yourself and FIGHT BACK! It's hard, but eventually it becomes child's play and will no longer seem like a fight. I wish you luck.



38.  Angel    Wednesday, January 6, 2016

I am so screwed. If I absolutely had to be a narcissist, I wish I could have been one that wasn't aware of the fact.



39.  Catherine Crago    Sunday, February 7, 2016

Um,you sound like a pissed off narcissist



40.  Fuad Al Qahtani    Sunday, February 7, 2016

No not at all I know I am not the narc Ok if that's what you think
I am not pissed off I am in pain and I actually do I am feeling something that you would never understand
I loved and suffered with this woman and believe me I have so much sympathy for her she went through so much in her life with her father her mother and being away from her daughter most of her life
It's seems you know nothing about life circumstances it could be you are her flying monkey who knows God knows



41.  rather not say    Sunday, February 14, 2016

This article like many others tends to sugarcoat narcissists, first of, why are you calling Elliott Rodger a narcissistic spree killer like it was some kind of glamorous thing to do, he is nothing but a typical psychopath serial killer. The underlying self hatred has to do with being gay. Come hell on earth no matter how politically incorrect this is, when you compare what gay people really believe when you visit gay forums, the mysoginy their hatred of society, their hatred for the normal people, because they were born different is the underlying cause for these. It is genetic to boot it runs in families. Don't misunderstand me, I am not or at least wasn't homophobic until I fell victim to one and discovered by pure chance and a lot of suffering that what they do as their normal day to day deceptions is exactly the very definition of being a psychopath, not a narcissist, Sam Vaknin is a full blown psychopath admitting latent homosexuality, not that it matters what he says since the only thing that can be taken for granted is that they always lie. Please read, Hervey M. Cleckley, The mask of Sanity and the Caricature of Love, as well as Robert D Hare, the foremost authority on psychopaths and if you can find it: The invert and his social adjustments by Anomaly, this is a gay man's as honest as it can be thoughts on his condition. To avoid a hate wave that is surely to follow, delete after reading.



42.  c2gemineyes    Monday, February 22, 2016

That was all Very Well said & very clear. I admire the way u described such a nightmare of the life of ur NPD mother (mine is NPD as well), but yet u have managed to find love and live a "normal" loving life with a family. A lot of children of NPD's have many emotional & psychological issues that make it almost impossible to have a normal kind of life. I had a beautiful life and children but many issues that are permanent even after therapy and diligent conscious efforts to b okay. I do admire your strength. Keep going the way your going. Ur happy. Be happy always. God Bless & Thank u for sharing this.



43.  c2gemineyes    Monday, February 22, 2016

Wow. Im living that right now. I can see my husband for what he really is. All the "kind gestures" "gifts" are a game too manipulate for his personal satisfaction. Im just making him miserable until I get thru some therapy sessions and feel strong enough to leave without the fear of returning



44.  c2gemineyes    Monday, February 22, 2016

I say that EVERYDAY about my NPD



45.  c2gemineyes    Monday, February 22, 2016

Thats where Im at. I dont feel strong enough to pull away but i abhor him & wish ill upon him so he cant hurt & destroy another person. If i had a friend to occupy my time with for a few weeks or so I could leave. Ive done it that way before and it worked. Im not strong on endings and being alone. An issue i wish i could fix but that wont happen before its time that I need to leave him.



46.  Tallis Spire    Sunday, February 28, 2016

@Nikki Carter: Minus a few minute details, your experience parallels mine so well. I've been through this before. Being codependent, I seem to naturally attracted to NPDs or narcissistic jerks. I actually use 'strong attraction' as a personal indicator that a guy may potentially be another toxic failed relationship. Since learning this was a highly accurate method of detection, I've become hopeless at times. I fall hardest for Narcs. Through Narcs I experience the only thing I know to be love. But since I'm unwilling to take a chance on getting involved with another one, I know I've got a long road ahead to heal and recover. If we attract our vibrational energy, it's going to take a year or multiples before I feel like I can make a healthy choice in a partner. I'm scared I will never experience love as I know it again.

And oh my did I really try hard with a "normal" guy. He was really into me, very patient and understanding. As he began to vocalize, he was falling for me. And sadly for him, I felt nothing- no spark. I was honest and explained I had not developed those feelings yet. Eventually, I decided I didn't feel it was fair to keep seeing him.

Now there was a person with some self respect. He didn't chase. He didn't beg. He didn't compromise his needs or wants to keep us from ending. I typically exude confidence and inner strength in social settings. But get me an emotional connection, and suddenly my dynamic CoDA role kicks in. I'm bargaining and grovelling on my hands and knees.

As if I haven't allowed myself enough disgrace, I'm frantically begging my abuser to love me and not leave. From the first time it happens in a relationship, I've come to realize that the relationship will forever be doomed. To explain, re-experiencing the intense emotions that arise when my fear of abandonment is triggered, is too traumatizing. At that point if he stays, I will never trust that he will stay for good. I can't trust him to hold a sense of mutuality between us any longer. Likewise, I then can not perceive myself as anything but inferior.

I know all this even as I'm begging. Yet I can do nothing else but frantically attempt to thwart the associated feelings. I do just that with the intention of preparing myself internally for whichever happens first: I leave or he leaves again. Typically, by his next vanishing act, I've already entered denial and nearly forgotten his first Houdini.

I've become more demanding for respect and validation. And he's grown fully indignant in his entitlement. This can be a highly volatile point in the relationship. Up until he leaves, that is, then I'm reduced to tears and apologies for being so "cruel" (by cruel I mean pointing out my Narcs inconsiderate and selfish behavior). Luckily, it's become a much faster transition from denial to acceptance with each successive narcissistic relationship.

There's a couple helpful things I've learned which contribute to my relationship patterns (amateur in research going on one and half years of studying narcissim/codependency/love addiction/psychological abuse). I remember asking one of my Narc lovers, "How did you know? How did you spot me? Is it how I move or the way I talk?" Of course I didn't get an answer from him. But shortly after, I came across a YouTube video or an article about 'pacing'. I've yet to see anything further on it. I've always been verbally expressive, open, and honest about who I am (to my deepest awareness). Essentially I tend to over share. Pacing is an information gathering technique the Narc uses to later mirror my ideal mate. All the Narc need do is befriend me and steer clear of shallow talks and engage in deep meaningful conversations. Essentially, I'm rushing intimacy. I never was taught that this honesty about myself is a priveledge better left earned.

Furthermore, since leaving my qualifier Narc (the one that drove me to discovery), it's been a topic just waiting at the tip of my tongue every time my mouth opens. Talking about what happened along with gaining validation from self and others, is an important part of the healing process. But it's better left to be done with a therapist, trusted friend, or understanding family member. Not to mention, it's a good way of people distancing themselves from you once they've grown tired of hearing about it. Besides what better clue would a Narc have that you're "food", than your own admission saying you're all but a great source of Narc supply?

Anyhow, great article and thanks for sharing.



47.  Bluezlover    Tuesday, March 8, 2016

Wow, you wrote that so well and so healthily, I am impressed with your insight and honesty. It must come from living around this type of damaged person for so long. You seem to have come to terms with it and understand it. Was it really emotionally hard for you in your younger years? It sounds like you have made peace with it, as what she is. I pray you have peace and joy in your life that certainly does not depend on her!



48.  Bluezlover    Tuesday, March 8, 2016

I am so sorry this abuser has done these things to you, So you are away from him now and no contact? What a horrible story of how he treated you, I had 27 yrs with a husband narc and a mother that was a narc and lived with me. UGH!



49.  aric098    Tuesday, April 19, 2016

Got so tired of trying to save what I realize now was the narcissist in my life. When ever I achieved something, instead of encouragement or being proud, he would put me down in some way. Never understood why?? He had self-destructive behaviors for years. Then he'd blame me for his habits. He blamed his "dysfunctional" family. Never taking responsibility for anything negative he did. For a long time, I tried to give to him emotionally, encourage him, thinking that it would help. It didn't. Finally, I gave up and focused on caring for myself. As he saw me not needing him, pulling away and being happy, he finally self-destructed. Now that he's gone, I still blame myself for not caring at the end. Although, I don't think it would have changed his behaviors. I live with the guilt of not caring when he physically needed me until the end of my days. Something inside him was missing or severely damaged.



50.  debra    Thursday, April 21, 2016

Wow great info but even better comments.I was married to one of these jackals,if that wasn't traumatic enough i got caught up with another.Praise God i stumbled onto this site armed with my new found education I will never fall prey again.



51.  JP    Tuesday, May 10, 2016

"So what can be done for them?" Nothing can, or should, be done FOR them. It's on them to do it for yourselves. And don't pretend you don't know what can be done, as if someone in this day and age has never heard of therapy before.



52.  c2gemineyes    Friday, May 27, 2016

How are you doing now? Are things better for you?



53.  Jules Curtis Akers    Thursday, June 30, 2016

He? Him? Interesting. This is every woman I have been close to. In my ex's case she was enabled by the state. The schools, health services, courts etc. were totally conned by her because 1) she is plausible and manipulative and 2) she is a she. The result was the destruction of my children's lives (mine too). But she still had the undying fawning support of the decision makers around us. Narcissism will always flourish when we have legal and social systems which encourage it.



54.  LRJ    Friday, July 1, 2016

I left my collapsed narcissists after 6 years 15 months ago and it still feels like yesterday. The damage to ones self worth takes a long time to heal from: the circle conversations, the twisting of everything to be about them, the lies, the blaming, the gas lighting...and then suddenly things are better but before one can think clearly about what is happening, what went on, it starts all over again. Such an abusive cycle. I was victim number 5 or 6, there were more most likely... still hard to comprehend that he feels NOTHING. Not ever. Not with anyone, friends, ex's, his children... life is better, so much better without him, what I am left with is his haunting in my mind, he still lurks there, it use to be everyday but with time it is less frequent and he is fading... I am my own person again, with thoughts and opinions that matter, I have learned boundaries and have learned to define a narcissist that one will never enter my life again. They all show the same sad pattern. Thank you for this article, it helps me define why I left, why I lost my self worth and why I am finding it again!



55.  LRJ    Friday, July 1, 2016

Therapy will help not piercing your tongue, its just a way to bring it back to you. Self aware of being a narc, telling your story no matter how sad feeds the attention you need. That's the "interrupting", not being able to "hear" anyone else....If you want to be well, if you wan to care about you or anyone, your only choice is intense therapy.



56.  Goldenpuff2    Wednesday, August 10, 2016

You aren't alone. I'm in it for 24 years here. I have pulled away, created boundaries he continually pushes against and he is now 'suddenly' very ill. Four days after I said of the Elephant in the Room that "our relationship has changed...obviously," he was on the floor in a fetal position saying he had to get his heart to stop pounding. Three weeks later, his bp is uncontrolled and he goes in for tests Fri. Earlier in the year, he had been such an **#& about his meds, he killed any nurturing I had left for him and he knows that. Has he made himself really this sick? I am in N hell.



57.  heather st mars    Wednesday, August 24, 2016

I CAN RELATE.YOU ARE N-O-T- AWFUL FOR WISHING HE WOULD DIE.after all HE is KILLING you far more painfully and cruelly than a long slow physical death from a physical wound.I too was abandoned by my family.I had been adopted, abused and tortured for 13 years, then finally "returned" as "damaged goods" and made a crown ward.I never saw ANY family members EVER again.I am 41 now.We are the IDEAL target or victim for sociopaths,narscisists, because there is NO ONE who cares who will hold them ACCOUNTABLE.there is no mother or father to take them aside and say "hey, I don"t like how your treating my daughter". and because of this, they are free to do as they please.We also have been so alone for so long, and long for someone to NEED who won"t abandon us, well the narc"(I cant spell it just let me use narc"), anyhow the narc" will gladly take that role because of THEIR OWN NEED TO BE NEEDED, for attention, and control.It is so easy for us to DOUBT ourselves, to doubt the true extent of our victimization.It is MOST hard to LEAVE FOR GOOD the narc"when you don"t have that network of support from family to GET YOU THROUGH IT.I can ONLY say this to do my best to encourage you.I did it.and I did it, NOT just alone, not just with no family, but due to spinal cord injury I lost touch with ALL OF MY FRIENDS.I was TRULY ALONE.myself, and my 2 teen kids, and actually HE left me, because I became paralyzed, and was now a burden to him.After calling a family meeting when he explained to me in my wheelchair, and my 14 year old son that he required MORE from us.We needed to prepare him his meals AND serve him in bed, ect and our response was you MUST be joking, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU.this 14 year old boy changes my diapers AND attends school full time, cares for the house maintenance, inside and out and is raising YOUR 11 year old daughter.YOU NEED TO BE DOING SOME SHIT AROUND HERE OR G-E-T- AN ILLNESS THAT JUSTIFIES YOUR DOING NOTHING.hell i wheel around and sweep the floors and do what I can even and I'm screwed.Well, THIS was NOT well recieved.He left.just left.i had (and still have) ,no friends to talk to about it, support me and tell me how much better off we"d be.(actually HE scared off all my friends i had prior to meeting him, and eventually LIED TO the APPROVED friends TOLD THEM I INJECTED MY PAIN MEDS!!!!!!!!!!!!)I WAS WITH HIM FOR 14 YEARS.because of the no family thing -and- the control/hold they get on your life, he was my entire life, he was my everything.as much as i hated him i couldnt imagine life without him and part of me continued to doubt if he was truly a narc" or if it was"t us.well i got through it,my kids got through it.it took YEARS to wade through the damage he had done.I AM STILL GETTING THROUGH IT AS I STILL HAVENT LEARNED HOW TO A-MAKE FRIENDS AND B- TRUST I WONT GET ANOTHER NARC" ENOUGH TO EVEN TRY.
--HE IS FULLY COLLAPSED, AND HE DOESNT EVEN CARE.he"s been DISCARDED like so many of those HE has discarded by EVERYONE.he spends each and every day, playing computer games in his underpants in a filthy roach ridden apartment.he is never visisted or called on.THIS DOES NOT REPEAT NOT MAKE HIM SAD NOR LONELY.HE DOES NOT REGRET HOW HE TREATED US BECAUSE NOW HE IS ALONE.he just doesnt care.

Anyhow, if I can get through this, a disabled single mother making $15000 a year, with no friends or family.ABSOLUTELY ANYONE ON THE PLANET CAN.I now honestly question, after the life iv had and pain iv endured, what can really hurt me, to where i could NOT adapt?remember, as human beings we were actually built to adapt to ANYTHING that is thrown at us.and we do.
GOD BLESS YOU, GOD PROTECT YOU, GOD GIVE YOU STREGTH , AND GOD LOVE YOU.YOU W-I-L-L- OVERCOME.



58.  Anjali Grover    Tuesday, September 27, 2016

I was married to a narcissist sociopath for 25 years and knew him for 28! No surprise, my mother was (is) a narcissist too. He wooed me into his web by lying about who he is, where he comes from, etc., and presenting a picture that was "too good to be true". I got sucked into it. That was the typical stage 1 of my relationship with a narcissist. He was 20 at that point and I was 17. He conned me through and through with lies and pretenses of being someone he was not. I now know it was far from love or even lust. It was about having the power to get what he wanted.And he did. This was how good he was at 20 years!!
A family friend told my parents his truth. I was devastated and heart broken to know how much he had lied to me. But very soon (thanks to lack of support and lack of self worth), I was back in his life. HE apologized to me so sincerely that I believed him again. We got married in 1989. First 10 years I was quite busy with my career to take much note of his antics. I was young too. But something inside me was telling me that this man is not right. He was quite different, he would not know how to have a conversation (only monologues), could not engage in any sort of feelings sharing, his communications were abrupt and so was his attention span, he was forever looking for some excitement, he wouldn't take on any responsibility, he was totally rash with money and important decisions, he wouldn't do anything by the book like normal people do. I seemed to be dealing with a spoiled brat, not a husband or a friend.
I did not want to have children with him as I felt that he would not be a responsible father. But kids came along. I embraced motherhood a 100% and started to give my career a lower priority (BIG MISTAKE). This did not sit well with him at all as the kids starting to take more of my (negative) attention. He wanted it all.
In 1998, he got his first big career break. All this while I had a better job, with better perks etc., with large multinational firms. As I slowed down and he got on the high road, my value for him diminished further. That is when STAGE 2 - DEVALUE started.
He started to travel a lot. I felt that he was always running away from home. He was barely interested in the kids. That put additional burden on me as I was still working.
His lies and emotional absence increased. I was no fool. I would catch his lies. And that would be hell. He would say - you heard it wrong, X who told you this wants to see me go down, you are misinterpreting it, you are so negative, blah blah. Many times he would get aggressive and say - "lets call X and ask him what he said". I would get scared. God forbid if I were to press him any further to accept his mistake, he would start to yell. I would retract totally. Each time I would meet his colleagues I would get to know more of his lies about the parallel life he was living.

He would come up with amazing explanations for his LIES and for all the other hurtful things like spending a lot of time with younger women, traveling too much, not showing any interest in genuine friends but running after the company of people in high positions and attending high society parties, or hiring yesmen and yes women in his office. I would be LEFT DOUBTING MYSELF. I would see people at work admiring me as if he was God. Now I understand why people think that way about him.
This phase lasted for another 7-8 years. Despite having a good sense that things were horribly wrong, I could never think of leaving. WHY? He would PROMISE me with utmost sincerity that he would become a good father, good husband and a good professional tomorrow. By giving me HOPE for a better tomorrow he controlled me. And I was on a roller coaster ride alternating between relief and chaos for years on end, till I felt sick myself and could not take it anymore. I hit a low point in my life in 2007/8 and I woke up realizing that I am not getting what I deserve in life. I AM WORTH IT. and I AM LOVEABLE. The change started from then. I started to search for answers. In 2012 I realized the damage my mother had on me and the same year I realized that I had married HER!!
I told him that I want to leave once kids go to college. He acknowledged that he was a full narcissist and said - Please don't leave. I will do everything that I can to fix myself". But he had realized that his mask was going to come off. He was furious by then for knowing his truth. He told me once, "those who know me I leave them". So he bought time by promising me a better tomorrow (YET AGAIN) and when I was least suspecting, he staged a spectacular DISCARD - STAGE 3, mid 2014!!!
My kids were grown up by then. My elder son was preparing for his SAT's, writing essays for college admission and giving final exams. That's when he decided to break the marriage. He had told kids on father's day, two-weeks before before he pressed the exit button. that he would be fixing everything and spending more time with them. On my birthday a few months before, he gave me an expensive watch and wrote in my card that "this promise is different from all other promises". There was a LOT MORE he did before pressing the button that I would not write here. Basically he played me on BIG TIME. I was hanging on the last straw of hope. Hopeless and desperate and totally in his control.

I died! Words cannot explain what I felt at that moment. I wanted to leave this marriage, then why did I feel so destroyed? My boat had big holes right from start which he said he would fix but never did, and I exhausted myself paddling with all my strength to stay afloat. When I could paddle no more and decided to jump off the boat, he gave me a straw to hang on to. And then he took away the straw too. That was his grand plan that he had executed with utmost finness and precision He wanted me to be a nervous wreck, so kids could DISCARD me too and he could tell his people - LOOK this is the crazy woman I married. People bought his story.

But he could not destroy me, what he destroyed was the woman who did not believe in herself and did not have the courage to create a life that nourished her.
I feel gratitude towards my x for coming into my life and making me the person I was meant to be. I am also thankful that he gave me my rightful share of money, for whatever reason. It fitted well with his narrative - poor guy, suffered in a bad marriage, had no choice but to leave, but is doing right by the family.. I can use this money to heal myself, support my kids and do some social good. Thank you.
It has been 2 years since the spectacular break-up, and I feel I have come a long way...There is contact for kids, but I make sure I do not give him any fodder to control me. NO emotions whatsoever.

With my mother, I have cut the chord. I do care for her but I do not allow her emotionally exploit me anymore.

That's my story in nutshell.



59.  chinabound45    Tuesday, October 11, 2016

My recent experience with my narcissistic Chinese wife that i met and married when i worked in china, we married 10 years ago and came to Canada, my home country 7 yrs ago, is a story of to good to be true, to mental abuse and brainwashing, to disaster for me. When we met she was just an angel from heaven. When we first began having sex, to me it was like, My God! How can this woman be so so so incredible at sex? Without describing in detail, I will say that she was just beyond what i ever had thought possible. She told me the first time we had sex when we were finished, lying on my chest, that she loved me. And then i moved in with her in her apartment in China for a year before we married. Then when we married, in China, everything began to change. She began yelling at me for silly things, calling me stupid often, and on and on, and i actually felt like i was not being a good husband!! When we moved to Canada, she one day totally blew my mind. She said she was going to lunch with a Chinese girfriend of hers, then to the library, then shopping, and she even asked me to go with her, and when i said sorry babe, i am real busy she asked me again, come with me please, and i said i cant and she said ok. After she was gone like an hour or so, i got a real important call for her, so i called her cell phone. She always answered or called me back quickly, but no this time. I called and called and no answer or callback. Sp I called her gf she was with and she told me my wife was on the 3rd floor at the library and she was on first floor, so i told her get my wife to call me asap, it is real important. No call, and then later when i called her gf well, her phone was turned off.

So at around 7pm the wife calls and i said where have u been, with another guy? and she said remember that guy i told u that always comes to my till when he shops that worked in korea teaching? Well i ran into him on the bus and took him to meet my gf, she is single and so is he. Then she got called to work so he asked me to go with him to the cinema to watch the afternoon movie, so i did,. and turned my cell of in the theatre. Then she got home and went right into the shower, she never showered at this time of night. So long story short she called him in front of me and told him i am mad so she cannot see him again and not to call her. And told ne his just a friend and nothing else at all. Well 2 more times i found out she was still seeing him, and she called him again both times with the same bullshit story, and of course swore up and down they were just only friends and nothing at all else.
And then it continued a few times more, we moved to a new city far away and i was out of town for a week one time and found out she had gone out one friday night and not returned home until noon the next day, and she had never done this ever before. So she told me when i asked that she had stayed at Vanessa's house, gf of hers, then like 9 months later during an argument i asked her where were u really that night u never came home, and she said i told u, i stayed at Tiffany's house. And of course, again i knew! And like a fool and a complete idiot, i still kept her with me. But now that she abruptly 5 months ago told me she does not love me anymore. we can never be husband and wife again, etc etc. and of course it is m\y fault totally the marriage is ruined, and we separated. She continuted to contact me and agrue, or the odd time cry on the phone and say we could have had a wonderful life together but i ruined it.
She knew i was completely heartbroken and ruined and she played that knowledge to her advantage. Hinted maybe we could fix the marriage, other times said never could that happen, told me she has not dated anyone at all since we separated and has not had sex, then 3 weeks ago she went to china to visit her family and told me her and Vanessa, her gf, were going there. I found out 2 days after she left that her and Vanessa did go, but also 2 guys went with them. So i sent her an email and said hope u arrived in China ok, hope u are safe, and also say hi to the 2 guys that went with u and Vanessa.

WEll, no reply for a couple of weeks, then she sent me an email saying she did not take a guy with her to china, she has not lied to me, but she wants me to know that she had sex with a man recently. By email she told me this!!

WEll that was it for me. Her telling me that, i just lost any desire for her.

Then she had th gaul to call me recently and asked me if i know her library card number cause she used the number for he gmail account. I had not by the way email her or anything since i told her say hi to the guys went with u.
Well, i told her, no idea what your library card is, nor do i care, have a good life, dont call me or contact me ever again, and just hung up.

So this is how the play is written. Leave him, insult him, hurt him, keep hurting him, and never stop.

So i would appreciate comments on what u think her game is, why she would tell me she recently had sex with a man by email, and did she really play me for years?

Thank u



60.  ANONYMOUS    Tuesday, October 18, 2016

My question is what happens when a covert narcissist loses their main supply? I left a middle-aged man and have been no contact for about 5 months now. I am finally starting to feel a bit better but I have good days and bad days, which I know is normal. I know he has other forms of side supply, but I guess I just wonder if a narcissist has zero supply, what would they do? I imagine something violent maybe? Scary stuff. Just glad I got out so far unscathed. Knock on wood!



61.  Lilyrose    Tuesday, November 29, 2016

This happened to my narc 54 year old brother. He was a handsome man and had so much praise and adulation. He married this woman and they had children. She left him for another man. Narc was addicted and exposed by his dad who told him he had to clean up and couldn't stay with him. I the sibling cut off ties because of his nasty horrible behaviors. His kids put up with it for a while. He alienated all his friends. He died from his addiction.



62.  Lilyrose    Tuesday, November 29, 2016

wow sounds like my mom. My mom is a covert narcissist. She acts like a saint, but beware of the knife in the back. She's been trying to break me and my husband up for years. My narc brother collapsed and died after his divorce. Thank God for my dad (God rest his soul), he saved me from becoming a narc.



63.  steve456    Sunday, January 29, 2017

It was sad to see one at his death. I was there-still feeling sorry for the person-the shame I could see in the cracks behind the tough exterior they put out there to the outsiders. I had reached an age and maturity of my own-that they couldn't be helped-their nature-although they wanted me to be around to care for them. I had no energy left to do it-to even try anymore. I didn't. Still struggle with that and it will be a regret until my own grave. Outward success, yes-yet under it-a small child still wanting validation, support, encouragement for who they are-in a nutshell-love. We learn too late. Wish I understood more earlier. I didn't-it's done.



64.  J Johnson    Saturday, February 4, 2017

You described my ex perfectly. Today he is a homeless, jobless, drug addict who has a prison record for assaulting me and blames everyone and anyone for his predicament. It was just after he got out of jail that we had not contact for the next 10 years (i had protection orders and basically hid from him). All that changed recently when he found me and started sending me threats - clearly wanting revenge for jail and 'ruining his life'. A female friend of mine stood up to him online, angrily calling him an abusive, psychotic stalker - and the most bizarre thing happened. He backed down! He whimpered apologies and said he meant no harm. It was truly astounding. This whole 'no contact' thing for over a decade did not work, but when a woman spoke to him and shamed him, he fell apart. He still made excuses of course, and I'm not sure how long this change will last, but it has been 6 months and the bastard knows where i am and has not tried anything. Un-Frikkin-Believable. I would have done this years ago, had I known what the cure was.



65.  Sarah Vaughter    Saturday, February 4, 2017

Perhaps he was afraid to have to go back to jail..



66.  J Johnson    Monday, February 6, 2017

Sarah, I failed to mention that aside from the last time he went to prison, he had been to jail 3 times (over assaulting me and breaching restraining orders) and other times since over drug offences. That has never stopped him before. As I said, I am still just GOBSMACKED that one woman (Not even me) suddenly got through to him. Every one heralds the 'no contact' rule as the elixir cure for narcissists. Not in my case.



67.  Freak Speely    Friday, February 24, 2017

My malignant narcissist, physically abusive mother finally collapsed after driving my father to an early grave and after I went no contact on her. It's one of the best decisions I've ever made. From what I hear from family who she still mooches off of, she's now mentally broken down, an angry religious zealot, and the only thing holding the mess together is absurd magical thinking. Of course, all of this is everyone else's fault according to her. Accountability is like a angry mob with pitchforks to her, she'd do anything to get away and hide from it.



68.  Reese Daniel    Friday, February 24, 2017

This article is a subtle, covert ATTACK on the VICTIMS AND TARGETS of these Narcissistic PREDATORS. Nice try but I see right through your bull shit.



69.  Lgk    Saturday, March 4, 2017

I get that it is best to run, but what happens to the narcissist? Does the descent continue until homeless and destitite? Is suicide possible?



70.  Nyakomaber    Saturday, March 18, 2017

OMG.. this is the exact description of my ex narc husband whom i lived with for 12 years. He was such a lier, thief, con , manipulator... name it. He really financially abused and controlled me until when i lost my job is when i got to know whom i was staying with. Life was good when i was working but the moment i lost my job (which he orchestrated), he turned my life into a living hell. Long story short... i made i decision that i would leave at some time. ^ years later, i got a very good job and BOOM, i left with our two kids (minors) leaving behind everything with him including personal things. I have never and will never look back. I have started life at zero a leaving him with all the matrimonial property as well as household items. Mind you, all these years, it was i who was working therefore, furnished the house and bought the properties though he was so cunning enough to ensure that both our names were on the documentations. I have never felt the peace and freedom that i now have... Thank you Lord!!!!



71.  Nyakomaber    Saturday, March 18, 2017

Please dear... leave as fast as you can before these people suck out the life in you!!1 Leave and never look back!



72.  c2gemineyes    Sunday, March 19, 2017

Nyakomaber, I wrote that a Year ago and Im Still here. I have made strides in self healing, respect, & loving myself. I still have deep psychological damage from the cruelty and abuse from the situation. I wont even being to assess the extent of my damages until I get outta here. He goes out of his way spending his energy making ways to make Sure that I Struggle on a daily basis just to be able to provide Myself the human basic necessesities that get taken for granted. He "forbids" to work my "at home business" at home, so Im limited to 4 hours of work time (and pray Gods grace blesses me with clients at those hours.) Im a massage therapist and working outcalls (going to the client) holds a far greater risk of dangers of all kind opposed to doing it at my home. I say "FUCK Him!" & I work anyway. He always demands I move out when hes not getting his way, or I call him out on his unacceptable, unspeakable Selfish behaviour, or I dont Just "act like he didnt do a damn thing that was venomous and to drop it & act like hes God almighty", plus to automatically be "happy". Fuck Him Again. But by limiting my hours, he knows hes interferring in my ability to b able to move. Yet in the Same breath Demands I get out. To What, Where, and How? I dont have line of credit, i dont drive anymore due to my deteriorated eyesight, and u know how aliented a spouse of an NPD becomes, so no one to help. Hes the opitome of Satans Spawn. Literally. Im praying and Im doing what I can and researching and networking. It'll happen. But until then, I Know WHAT he IS. And I do have reapect for myself not to eat his bs. Some is hard to prevent. But i do my best. Thank u.



73.  Susan Dudek    Saturday, April 15, 2017

Let me say that I never knew that I was already dealing with a Collapsed Narcissist. When I met him, the charm and excitement overwhelmed me until we got together and I saw everything. I was involved with a somantic in the past and learned a lot about the disorder and now I ended up with a cerebral. When I moved in with him. Yes I did. I lasted 30 days because the flags were potent and I knew I couldn't help this man, but never grasped he had already collapsed. He was livid when I left and boy did I get the rage and the big bad wolf came out to tear me apart. I know he wants nothing to do with me because how dare I not live under his control and wishes. What does sadden me the most is that he was aware of things he did and his behavior. He talked about his abusive upbringing from his father, the beatings and then how his mother wasn't there for him, but loved her art more. He talked about the failed relationships and what he did so I knew HE knew what he was doing and everything collapsed I just didn't fully "get it" that he was already there. Then I left him. It truly broke my heart because I had to do this and I pray that he will be one to come out a victor and he'll have to do it alone. he can't do it with me there it would have gotten worse and worse. By my leaving I saved myself and I saved him. He wanted to relive all the crazy crap he did in the past that fed his narcissistic supply; however, that wasn't the answer and I wouldn't allow it - as to why I left. Great article. Now I get it.



74.  Hope Erica    Friday, April 21, 2017

Same baby father narcissist and mom is too. I also belive they had sexual contact with each other. I've seen with my own eyes , they both deny. I'm in hell



75.  Edo     Sunday, April 30, 2017

It doesn't really seem like you want to help Collapsed Narcissists. Just that you want to warn people around them how awful they are. Which seems to me a valid warning. But I don't get how as a shrink you would also judge them. You write that they cannot feel real connections with people, that seems to be awful. I would expect a shrink to be nonjudgmental when talking about disorders. Because I don't see Collapsed Narcissists ever being cured by shrinks when shrinks themselves think, like the Narcissist, that they are awful too.



76.  Emily Wintringham    Monday, May 1, 2017

I'm kinda a narc myself. It's really annoying. being a narc is not bad once you realize what you are. If you're a narc, you're the complete opposite of an empath. Empaths have a very unique, precious ability to sense the emotions of others, while narcs, we have no register for emotions what so ever, think of yin and yang. Once you realize ur a narc, things may change bc u understand why the world seems to move on without you. The way you recover is to first come to grips with the truth, start telling the truth, and attempting to find something in life you truly care about. Often times without having any feelings you have no sense of identity. You have to be sort of rudimentary about it, so you must sit down and ask, what do I like about this person? really meditate on that, what you honestly like about yourself and about others. This has to be from an ideological standpoint, and not emotional standpoint because a narc has no emotions and doesn't recognize them at all. a counselor can truly help.



77.  Tony    Thursday, May 4, 2017

Ms. Endsley,

Thank you for this article; it was very insightful as I'd not encountered the "collapsed narcissist" concept before. One thing I note however, as I have with most articles that deal with the topic of clinical narcissism, is that there is rarely any attention given to the narcissist in terms of the ways in which one might recognize his or her condition and attempt to heal from it. I'm not suggesting that those who have endured the negative effects of their associations with narcissists don't deserve attention and assistance in how to get their lives back to normal; they most certainly do. However, if the goal of psychiatry as a profession is to advocate for the mental health and associated well-being for all, then narcissists also deserve to be offered help and an opportunity to change their lives for the better.

So often, there are elements of articles such as these that paint those struggling with narcissism with broad brush strokes and with tones stopping just short of evil. As a "recovering narcissist" myself, I will agree that most people in the throes of this mental malady will not recognize their condition and therefore will not seek out help and apply it in their lives; I think in retrospect this one of the more sinister aspects of this condition, particularly when you finally are able to understand what's been happening and why and realize how much of your life and energy has been wasted.

In my personal research, and as you yourself allude to, narcissism is a mental condition the causes of which have not been rigidly defined. I believe that may be due to the fact that the development of narcissism in a person rides that edge of causality between genetics and environment, the latter most strongly in the more formative years. That lack of definition of causality thwarts attempts at a "cure", so to speak, and so narcissists are left with trying to recognize their condition for what it is after they've been living with it and its associated habits, which would be a tall order for most people. Still, I believe people can come to redeem themselves, develop a sense of honesty with and about themselves, and work to make their lives better and the lives of those who care for and about them. All of that starts with awareness and a commitment to a better life and to determined work.

All my best to you and your readers for continued mental health and recovery.



78.  ImA HumanLikeYou    Sunday, May 14, 2017

Thank you. I needed to hear that.



79.  Chris    Sunday, July 2, 2017

My X husband, only married 5 years.... Thankfully, once said "Happiness is confused with complacency". This article describes his behaviors for the last two years of marriage, as I gave up feeding him and demanded he behave as an adult. 2 years no contact! Yes!


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